The Hickensian

31.12.08 Popcorn Hour, WD TV or Apple TV?

34 comments
Tagged with: appletv, macmini, mediacenter

So, with my scrapbooking system sorted, my thoughts now turn once more to my unsolved Media Centre thingy.

To catch up: I’ve given up on the Mac Mini solution after it delivered nothing but a black screen for the umpteenth time. I’ve had various problems with it, all software related and fixable, but I was getting a bit fed up with the amount of administration it required. I spent more time in screen sharing keeping it ticking over than I did using the remote. EyeTV in particular threw up problems, from bizarre errors to app updates that caused it to crash at launch. Others may have had better experiences with their Minis, but I’ve had enough.

Giving up on the PVR side (I’ll probably end up with a Sky+ box) I’d decided to go the Apple TV route, and I’ve been saving my Amazon Vouchers to get a 160gb version. What I particularly liked about the ATV was the AirTunes function, and that it’s easily hackable with a patchstick. Now that I’m ready to buy, it’s out of stock on Amazon (and seemingly everywhere else too, including the Apple Store). It’s also 2 years since it’s come out, and all this leads me to wonder – will there will be a revision announced at Macworld next week? It’s possible, but so far the rumours have been surrounding iMacs, Mac Mini’s and the supposed iPhone Nano.

It’s also given me an opportunity to look at what alternatives are out there, and there are 2 in particular that are interesting to me:

Western Digital HD TV Media Player

Rather than a networked machine, the WD TV is a simpler (and substantially cheaper!) affair. You just plug in up to two USB drives with media (such as a WD passport drive and memory stick), and it finds it all and provides a TV interface to play it. It can play just about any format you want to throw at it (with the exception of iTunes DRM’d media of course). It can output HDMI and optical audio. It’s small, cheap (£80 on Amazon.co.uk), and gets the job done.

The main downside seems to be the interface, which while it isn’t offensive, is rather ‘Vista’:

Popcorn Hour

This ‘Networked Media Tank’ looks like another good option, and has a rave review on CNet. It comes Hard Drive-less, and you add whatever size drive to it takes your fancy. So rather than be stuck with Apple’s 160gb drive, 1TB is possible. Looks wise, its quite industrial, but I rather like it (and certainly prefer it to the plasticy looking-like-an-alien trend). Again, it takes every format you can throw it at it, and also integrates extras like a bittorrent client, and content from Flickr and YouTube to name but two. It doesn’t have WiFi, but this can easily be added with a USB dongle. In short, it’s expandable and flexible.

Again, if there is a downside, it’s the interface, and in Popcorn’s case it comes off a little worse than the WD TV. As this blog review shows, some of its screens are better than others. Apparently the menus are constructed from HTML (and CSS?), and can be hacked, but I’m not sure I want to be going down that route!

Neither of these are particularly aimed at OS X users, but as far as I’ve gathered, both will work (or can be made to work without too much hassle). I have a nagging feeling that I will end up with the Apple TV, as that best suits my iTunes centric and UI design fussy world.

So, if you have either of these devices, have successfully hacked the Popcorn Hour UI, I’d like to know your thoughts! Likewise, if there is a similar device I should be considering (that doesn’t involve another games console or XMBC), please let me know too!

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No.1

∞ Dirk said 446 days ago:

Another device is the HDX 1000, which is very similar to the Popcorn Hour. It has nearly identical hardware, but a better build quality. A friend of mine has it and it works great. UI – well, probably same as the Popcorn Hour – not nice, but working. It all probably depends on what you want to do with it – as usual.

No.2

∞ Adrian said 446 days ago:

Surely if you remove the PVR component from the equation, you won’t be getting very much extra in an Apple TV than you would be with the Mac Mini and FrontRow.

I have a Mac Mini setup with Plex (I know its a xbmc variant) and as a torrent downloader that after about 2 hours of initial management, works fine and needs minimum upkeep (30 seconds here and there)

Although maybe I should be looking into a hacked Apple TV to liberate my Mac Mini into being a desktop machine again and/or a test server.

Here’s looking forward to Macworld with baited breath and a nervous wallet :)

No.3

∞ Michael said 446 days ago:

If you can wait, the Nvidia Ion looks like it’ll be a beast in the HTPC department.

No.4

∞ Thomas said 446 days ago:

My requirements from an Apple TV (or similar device) are perhaps slightly more limited than most since my main computer and TV are in the same room, so I only actually want to use mine for watching videos so that my iMac is free for other usage. As such Apple TV suits me fine and with the new version of Handbrake I find that I can even reencode unsuitable video formats without as noticeable loss of quality at similar file sizes.

There are certain extra things that would be nice, but on an it does what it does basis I have no qualms – especially as mine was a refurb and reduced in price as a result.

No.5

∞ Mike said 446 days ago:

I’m very happy with my hacked Apple TV. For music, its iTunes integration is fantastic (I am quite obsessive about play counts), and Boxee makes pretty much any internet video (Hulu, etc.) accessible. Hopefully the Boxee guys can get Netflix streaming working on the Apple TV; they are currently having some problems with it.

As a plus, the remote and UI don’t terrify my girlfriend! She uses it as much as I do.

No.6

∞ Carl said 446 days ago:

Like I mentioned via Twitter, I have a WD TV and I love it. It was cheap ($99 on our side of the pond) and the UI is easy to use and navigate.

I only use it to watch videos, but it does the job and handles practically any video format I have thrown at it.

Most of my content is via bittorrent and consists of divx, avi and mkv video files. I haven’t had a single issue playing any of the common video formats available on bittorrent.

It also has the added benefit of being very portable.

On a recent family related trip I was able to take it along and hook it up in the hotel room and have easy access to my video library. The device is roughly the same dimensions as a WD Passport drive, only thicker. So it is very easy to throw it in a bag and take it with you to a friends house, vacation, etc.

The dual usb ports (one on the top, one on the back) is also handy. I typically keep a large capacity MyBook HD hooked up to it but I have also plugged in my thumb drive into the top port to watch videos from it.

I’m very happy with it, especially for the price.

My ideal setup is a Mac Mini, but right now I can’t justify the cost difference. All I use it for is to watch videos and the HD TV does it just fine for a lot less.

No.7

∞ Stuart Langridge said 446 days ago:

The Neuros OSD ? Very responsive team at Neuros if there’s stuff you want to do with it.

No.8

∞ Jon Hicks said 446 days ago:

It might be worth pointing out that in the UK we don’t get services like Netflix and Hulu :(

No.9

∞ rvr said 446 days ago:

facing exactly the same dilemma. i haven’t set up a mini, but have been considering it as one option. i really want something dead simple, though, and have been leaning towards the atv. i have a very low threshold for ui pain, so i’m not likely to put up with these other variants. plus, integration with itunes is a big plus.

here’s hoping something nice comes out of macworld.

No.10

∞ jon said 446 days ago:

I have been surprised at how well my TivoHD paired with the Tivo Desktop software has become central media center. It doesn’t integrate with iTunes, but I use my Airport Express w/ the Remote app running on my iPod Touch for music. Sounds complicated in print, but it actually works really well :).

No.11

∞ Adam Stephens said 446 days ago:

My guess is you won’t like the Popcornhour at all. The biggest downside is the HTML interface. The interface does not scroll, it pages, and somewhat slowly.

I used XBMC for a long time on my original Xbox, then switched to the Popcornhour. I’m now using a Shuttle PC running Vista, and I truly believe the computer is the way to go as it gives you the ability to access streaming media on the web. A real computer also allows for more flexibility in software choices.

I’m waiting for the Nvidia Ion that Michael mentioned above, and will swap that in as it will be lower power and quieter than the Shuttle.

No.12

∞ Paul Duncan said 446 days ago:

Looks like my chipped XBox is slightly out of date but it still does what I require!

As for PVR I went the freesat route and just treated myself to the Humax HDR which works with my old sky dish and gives me HD (albeit only BBC and some ITV so far)
I’m rather happy with it..
http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/index.php/digital-boxes/humax-foxsat-hdr

Happy New Year

No.13

∞ Chris McC said 446 days ago:

After looking at both these options and devices like the Apple TV, Mac Mini, and other NMTs like the HDX/Istar I went for the popcornhour. I added a 1Tb HD & it is connected to an AV Receiver which gives me access to advanced features such as HD audio and 1080p.

There is not much it doesn’t do, and I can see very few reasons to go for a HTPC. It is simple to setup, plays everything (1080p mkvs, flac, dts 5.1 soundfiles), and works well as a download box e.g. I can queue torrents/nzbs to download overnight. Major bonus is that it uses very little power < 30W. It gives me very little hassle and for these reasons i love it.

Saying that the UI is poor, it is slow, the layout is poor and some of the navigation is pointless, but i expect this will get better (I believe there are other skins available but haven’t tried them – waiting for the HicksDesign skin!). Mine is a little noisy but that is mostly down to the HD.

I use OS X & that is not a prob, however I have been unable to see my mac iTunes on the PCH. It mounts as a shared drive on my network, and after installing some drivers it can be used as an external USB hard drive.

No.14

∞ Dan Felton said 446 days ago:

This feels like blasphemy given that I’m a big apple fan, but in my house (shared with 3 other students), we have a PC hooked up to our TV which is running vista home premium, and it works great for watching media.
We also have A PS3 and Xbox 360 hooked up, and both provide steaming capability from a windows PC with media sharing set up (very easy in WMP11).

I know its fashionable to talk smack about windows. But vista + a good codec pack really does make a good media center box.

Personally I am thinking of getting a mac mini, but I’m waiting to see if it gets an update.

No.15

∞ Chris said 445 days ago:

The wifey went away at half term for a few days at which point I bombed it to the Apple store and bought an Apple TV for the bedroom. I still think it’s great although I do find myself accessing my iTunes music more often than watching films.

The automatic sync to my MacBook iTunes is as it should be….seamless. Buying a film from iTunes on my laptop (whilst the kids were fannying about) meant that once it was downloaded it was sent up to the TV upstairs straight away (once the kids were fannied out). What more could I want?

One day. I think the wife will appreciate my purchase as well.

No.16

∞ Brent said 445 days ago:

I’m a Mac user who picked up a WD TV a month or two ago, and it’s worked well for what I wanted it (mostly playing HD EyeTV recording on my TV). Others report that it uses comparatively little energy—7W—when in use, and that it uses the same processor as the Popcorn Hour. I really like the fact that it can read HFS+ (non-journaled) drives.

Yes, the interface is quite plain. While I’d certainly prefer something better thought out and nicer to look at, I haven’t found it frustrating to get to the video I want to watch.

I’ve always been rubbed the wrong way by what I’ve seen of the Apple TV menu (disclaimer: I’ve never used one in person), which seems to put interface priority on renting movies from iTunes over watching movies I already have on my computer. I’m also skeptical of keeping my videos in iTunes, and converting them to get them there… most of my issues may well be solved by hacking the AppleTV, though.

The biggest casual-use drawback to the WD TV that I know of (though there are certainly others, which are noted in places like www.avsforum.com) is that it doesn’t play ripped DVD menus—though it’ll still play the movie proper. (This may be added in the future; WD has already released one firmware update that’s tweaked things.) I hear the Popcorn Hour does play DVD menus, if that matters.

No.17

∞ Matthew Buchanan said 445 days ago:

When John Gruber suggests waiting I’m hopeful there is an update to Apple TV coming. I have both the ATV and the WD TV. The ATV is not hacked; I use VisualHub to re-encode video that’s not of a suitable format and don’t really have an issue with that workflow as VH runs so well in the background on a quick machine.

I love the WD for its portability mostly, and its format support. I can take it away on a family trip and use it to play a movie or play back clips off the Kodak Zi6 via its USB port. Of course the Zi6 does plug directly into a TV but this saves an extra set of cables. The interface is very Vista, but seems to work well enough, it remembers and offers to resume any movie file I’ve previously played (as does the ATV). It sometimes gets a little wobbly if you fast forward at 16x and then return to normal playback speed: it has a tendency to keep skipping frames. A stop and resume fixes this problem. Western Digital seem quite active with updates which is good.

A hacked Apple TV would offer just about the best of all worlds, and if the Apple TV update does turn out to be true — and is a media server of some kind — that would trump just about everything. Do ATV hacks survive point updates? That has been my worry with hacking mine to date.

No.18

∞ Matthew Buchanan said 445 days ago:

A couple more points on the ATV: its Flickr, YouTube and podcast support are all surprisingly useful in a lounge room setup. The worst part of its interface is the on-screen keyboard, but if you have an iPhone with Apple’s Remote app installed, every time the keyboard pops up, you can enter input via the iPhone keyboard. The Remote app works brilliantly for controlling ATV content too.

No.19

∞ Jon Hicks said 445 days ago:

Thanks Matthew – I was travelling yesterday and missed that tweet!

No.20

∞ George Penston said 445 days ago:

I wouldn’t put too much weight on Cnet’s rave review of Popcorn Hour. They said that the Dish Network’s DVR was the best around and I fell for it. The UI for Dish’s DVR is horrible. Obviously they don’t factor in the user experience when they review these things. Now I’m stuck with the DIsh DVR’s UI for two years. I should’ve stuck with the Tivo and paid the extra money for a decent UI.

On the VOD front, I’ve had an Apple TV for quite some time. I have to say it doesn’t get tons of use but when it does get used, the family is very pleased with it. We mainly use it a lot around Friday movie nights. If there’s actually something decent to rent on Apple TV, it works out great. I do wish Apple would make it more obvious what is available for rent vs. only available to buy. And have more things available for rental.

Good luck and Happy New Year.

No.21

∞ Jörg Battermann said 445 days ago:

Got the NetworkMediaTank, too… and I have very mixed feelings about it: it basically plays like 98% of the material you throw at it, but the firmware quality is low.. at best. They introduce new, bad, bad bugs, things that used to work just stop working (nfs support for example), networking over samba/smb is too slow to handle normal matroska files so it’s just a so-so experience. The UI etc is bad, slow and awkward.

It ain’t a bad device, but they certainly could use a proper QA-team over there and someone who takes care of a proper, up-to-date user interface.

A friend of mine has a DViCO TViX HD M-7000 (the 6500 one is hardware-wise pretty similiar) … which is a tad more expensive, but the same DSP & way better overall quality. They come with and without a HDD built in… maybe another alternative.

Cheers & happy new year,
-Jörg

No.22

∞ Scott McMillin said 444 days ago:

That’s really too bad about the Mac Mini, Jon. I’ve been running my media center on a Mac Mini Core Solo since that model came out (3 years?). I use an external drive in a NewerTech MiniStack for recording EyeTV. EyeTV has been great for the most part — there were a few releases with the occasional kernal panic, but the last 2.x release has been really solid. Unfortunately the Core Solo can’t drive video in 3.x releases of EyeTV, which was disappointing (shouldn’t these things get faster/better?).

Recently we’ve been using Boxee, and I’ve been really impressed with it so far. It’s XBMC-based and I love the fact that anyone can develop plug-ins for it in Python. Apparently the Boxee guys are going to ship a set-top box, so I’m really curious if that could replace my Mini at some point.

Look forward to hearing your continued adventures on this front. (Oh, and I’ve been putting Leap through its paces — thanks for the tip on that).

No.23

∞ Ben Lyall said 444 days ago:

My parents were after something similar to the features you’re looking for, so I went looking and found a DViCO TViX HD M-5100SH. So far it has played everything thrown at it. It’s a bit more expensive than a Popcorn Hour (at least in Oz), but it also has a tuner and PVR functionality built in. The tuner is modular, so you can buy them with and without. I have also heard rumours of a dual tuner coming out.

The M6500A and M7000A are the updated versions, and use a newer (faster) chipset, but the chipset in the M5100 doesn’t seem to have any problems playing everything I’ve got.

Might be worth a look for you too.

No.24

∞ Frankie Roberto said 444 days ago:

I bought an Apple TV for Christmas and am pretty pleased with it so far. Have mainly used it for listening to music (synced via iTunes) and looking through old photos (from iPhoto) – sometimes both at the same time thanks to the various slideshow options.

If you’re likely to have the computer it’s synced to on at all times (mine is a Mac Mini) then the size of the HDD drive doesn’t really matter as streaming is as good as syncing – even for videos.

The UI does place the iTunes/movie store above ‘My music/movies’ rather annoyingly, but as it remembers which setting you were last on, this isn’t a real inconvenience.

At the moment, it seems more likely that Apple will release a software upgrade rather than a new version of the hardware, but we’ll see.

No.25

∞ Anthony Baker said 442 days ago:

Hey Jon,

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but Apple TV is also supported by Boxee. I got an invite from a friend, installed the patch, and now can watch videos from Hulu on my 42” HD. Very nice indeed. They’re working on Netflix streaming support on Apple TV with Boxee as well, but aren’t there yet. Sounds like they do have support for that on the Mac Mini, however.

One addition to our household is now the XBox 360, which does have Netflix streaming support. And I have to say, it works great. The HD Netflix content comes down brilliantly.

In addition to Apple TV, another part of my workflow is using VisualHub to quickly transcode any video content to whatever format I need. I currently transcode and sync a lot of content to Apple TV via this method.

No.26

∞ Jon Hicks said 442 days ago:

No Netflix in the UK Anthony!

It’s looking like Popcorn Hour wouldn’t be the best choice for me, but WD TV is a possibility.

No.27

∞ Justin said 441 days ago:

Jon, why is XMBC/Plex not an option on your Mac Mini? I was going to do that so I am interested on why you don’t consider it an option. (especially considering that you mentioned that you wont be using EyeTV anymore).

The MediaStream UI in Plex (and XMBC) just looks awesome, the IMDB integration is great, and I found the photo browsing really good (so many different options).

No.28

∞ Anthony Baker said 441 days ago:

No Netflix? Ah…

Too bad they at least don’t have streaming. You folks also have issues with Hulu content? Is that available overseas?

No.29

∞ neuro said 441 days ago:

Jon, if it’s not outside your budget, try a Mac mini (any Core 2 Duo model will do) and Plex. It’s a very capable, Mac-focused fork of XBMC, and it’s damn powerful. The Mediastream skin that it uses knocks most other HTPC interfaces I’ve seen into a cocked hat.

No.30

∞ Chris said 441 days ago:

I have this exact conundrum at the moment. I currently have an oldish imac with a few movies, albums etc and would like to view (the movies especially) on my tv. The options are selling my imac and getting a mini mac that would be used predominantly as a media centre. Or getting an apple TV or WD TV.

I am a bit worried about the resolution problems people seem to experience with the mini, and how to output the audio as well. And can I justify spending the hundreds of pounds as apposed to £90 on the WDTV? Obviously it’s a bit of a hassle to update the USB drive with new movies from my imac, then plug into the WD TV. But could probably live with it.

Or shall I get an apple tv and hack it to play avi’s, divx or whatever. With this option I would still need my imac, so probably the least cost effective option.

Decisions, decisions. I think my favoured option is the mac mini route – but the simplicity of copying my movies to an aesthetically pleasing external hard drive and plugging into the WD TV is appealing, all for under the price of any of the alternatives.

No.31

∞ Rob Scriva said 440 days ago:

Have you looked at a Beyonwiz DP-P1/DP-P2? I bought one, has 2xHDTV tuners, reads network drives, has memory card and USB inputs. It’s brilliant.

No.32

∞ Chris said 440 days ago:

Well I think I’ve narrowed my decision down to an apple tv or mac mini. The main issue with the mac mini for me is whether it’ll display correctly on my Toshiba 32WLT66 LCD. It has a resolution of 1366×768 and if I could get a definitive answer for that it would probably sway my decision.

I couldn’t live with it if I hooked it all up and got a rubbish picture. I would rather get an apple tv and re-encode my films to be compatible with itunes and thus front row.

No.33

∞ mattyk said 439 days ago:

I have a humax 9200TB and absolutely love it. I think they have brought out hi def ones now…

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freeview_humax.html

No.34

∞ Olly Jackson said 433 days ago:

I bought a PCH just after xmas and I find it meets my needs. The interface is all html driven menus so its never going to be as fast or slick as an ATV. Bonus is that it has lot of user generated “portals” to flickr, last.fm, youtube, apple trailers, bbc listen again etc. It’s also virtually silent, draws very little power and can have as many USB devices (card readers, cameras, HDDs) plugged into it as you like. I bought it mainly to double as a NAS, with my external WD drive plugged into it.

If you don’t care about the NAS functionality, USB extendability and playing exotic formats I’d go with the WD TV.